[Rolken]

I was under the impression that the Heroes rankings were basically past the point of no return as far as separating TBG out is concerned. I've since been corrected in that in actuality the top two players never used it and most of the records are TBG-free. Is this true? If so, I think there is valid justification to separate out TBG rankings, as it seems both TBG-free and TBG-abused competition could benefit from the clarification. Opinions?

[PsyBorg]

I think that some of their records are TBG based, and they haven't bothered to fix up their non-TBG records. At least, that's how I see it. Robot Storm (Sonic) was definitely TBG'd on soniham's part, but I don't believe he's TBG'd everything (most of the dark missions don't appear to be TBG'd, but some missions like Robot Storm (Rose) were certainly TBG'd, as I definitely had to TBG to beat that one)


My personal opinion is that technically, I am in favor of seperating TBG and non-TBG, but of course,  it'd be really difficult to do so. You'd not only have to look carefully at every single record to determine whether it was TBG'd or not, you would also have to interview the person to ask what records were TBG'd or not just to make sure. It may very well be past the point of no return, unless you'd like to kill the current boss records. You see, there are also the in-between records, where maybe someone TBG'd once, but it was by chance and they didn't know it, so they appeared to get a "normal" boss time. Or maybe they tried to TBG, but they just did it horribly and got a bad boss record. Or maybe they just got lucky and didn't even TBG at all. You can't know a non-competitive record simply by looking at it, so manual seperation will be a difficult and tedious choice if you decide on it. Either that, or you have to keep it the way it is or delete the times for the purpose of TBG and non-TBG seperation.

But, if you insist on seperating the bosses, then I will tell you that the only thing that required TBG on my part were dark missions, Robot Carnival/Storm for all teams, and Egg Albatross (Sonic). All others were completed without the use of TBG simply because it wasn't useful. On a side note, if I were to ever do the final stage, that would madly require TBG.


Anyway, tis' your choice about the seperation, rolkby. Iunno what to do.

[KnucklesSonic8]

I am also in favor of this proposal. I have never once used the TBG and it's very unfair for those that don't know how to do it, or, they choose not to do it. None of my times, or anything else for that matter, have used TBG.

I agree with Psy here that there are definitely at least a few records that may have used TBG. Overall, I think this would be a good decision to seperate the two but that's just me. Take other people's opinions into account to, especially those not in favor so you can find out why some may think otherwise of the notion.

[magnum12]

Its you call. I support you all the way, but unfortunately, its been way too long. (We should have settled this back in 2004.) If we interview people, many of the entries happened so long ago (at least 6-9 months ago) that their method was most likely forgotten by now. If it does get split, I'll move some of the stuff I submitted yesterday (I personally gave up on any hope of TBG getting moved months ago.) I suspect we'll need to check the following times and divisoins: Team Dark (Times), Team Chaotix (stealth mission times and Final Fortress), Team Dark (Extra), Team Chaotix (extra stealth missions), Bosses (all, especially Team Sonic, Dark, and Metal Madness), and Score (all, especially Dark). I did some reasearch about a year ago and found that TBG has no competitive effect on Rings (Team Chaotix) asides from making ring runs a little faster, thus ring division would be a good exception to the rule. Some would argue that with the split, any missed Thunder Shoot attack would make the run void under a "no artifical boost to TB gauge" rule, but the rapid use of Thunder Shoot is natural, like building up a super gauge in a fighting game by mashing quick punch.

[Shadow Jacky]

My understanding was I didn't think anyone would abuse it the way magnum had done yesterday.  I admit that I have used it before and can tell you each and every devision where I have used it on (its easy because it wasn't a lot).  My runs wouldn't work around to using all the time if at all unless I had it really close to a TB already in which point what would be the difference if I had just thundershot or used the power character to gain it anyway?  It was quicker to me and didn't see any negative effects.  From what I have is close to what I would have on the times and some scores (very little scores) of what they would be if I didn't use the glitch.  (I hated using it for Chaotix rings and they still suck!)

When I had first heard about it I didn't think anything of it like the other glitches or strange shortcuts that happen in any other sonic games that people can exploit to gain an advantage.  If anyone can do it and it wasn't brought down then it wasn't a problem.  I was put off of TAing in that regard because I couldn't figure some of those damn good times.  Then after I did scores (recently) I started with TAing again and got pretty good at it to where I am now.  During that though I was in chat and TBG was brought up and I had asked was it still legal.  RPG informed me that it was so I gave it a shot.  My first TBG'd time was Final Fortress: Dark.  Then out of nowhere eredani beats it.  I dont know if he used it himself to totally blast my time or not since I heard he doesn't use it, but I didn't try to raise it upon anyone to try and get it off.

After a while I had busted out some good times and kept going at a steady pace.  Then I hit dark and that changed a bit.  I would almost abuse it to the point where it was no fun, then I started to think of other ways and cut some corners to the levels to change things up and I got better without using it either once/twice or not at all.  To me most of the time its pointless to even do it because of the level layout and where rings, enemies, or items are when I started to explore the levels up a bit.  It still might change for the ones I did do it on, but its come down a lot.  Now that I see what magnum had done, it just ruined some of the levels with dark and can ruin others with sonic, rose, and chaotix at some parts. 

For me, I'm ok with it, but now that other people have mentioned it, it would be kinda late for most of the people that haven't done anything in SH for a while.  Recent might, but it wont change the fact on others.

Magnum, where did this come from though?  I mean you haven't done anything with SH till now and you being so strong against TBG, I didn't think you would break down and slaughter dark like that?  You even beat Yoshifan's Grand Metro which I thought was a testament to skill with dark.  WTF MAN?!

[magnum12]

Magnum, where did this come from though?  I mean you haven't done anything with SH till now and you being so strong against TBG, I didn't think you would break down and slaughter dark like that?  You even beat Yoshifan's Grand Metro which I thought was a testament to skill with dark.  WTF MAN?!

I had two reasons for that burst of cheap shots.
1. As I said before, (even one of my comments) I finally just gave up any hope of TBG being moved.
2. I also wanted to prove a point as to why TBG is cheap/skill less and should be banned, even if it resulted in a few times being moved if by some remote chance it did get moved. (Which is why I specifically used Team Dark stages.) On the bright side, all of those records were done on a seperate memory card so I could save the real ones if it was ever moved. The Carnival (Sonic and Rose, which I didn't submit) were legit though.
-To be honest, I had absolutely ZERO fun doing those runs. Its just plain not fun just using it, running a little, and spamming it before the cool down expired. I still hate TBG as strongly as ever. My apologies to anyone I freaked out yeaterday.

[Shadow Jacky]

Your last point is what I thought no one would actually do.

Thing is your Dark Grand Metro Extra is a bit iffy.  Did you do it there too?  If so then I'm wondering what the hell smizzla is doing.  My only big gripe about it is my fingers start to hurt trying to push those 2 buttons together and also it doesn't even work 100% of the time for me, so thats why I hadn't abused.  Then again even if I could, I wouldn't

[Groudon]

Smizzla might have TBGed constantly on his times too.  After seeing his 6:58 on the extra Team Dark mission, the only thing I could think of him using was TBG overdose.

I only try to TBG at certain parts and in many of the extra Team Dark missions (of course, none of them are that good) and certain parts of levels (mostly Final Fortress near the 3 hammer robots [with 2 or all 3 of them armored]).

[Rolken]

This concept of TBG being maybe somewhat iffy is what I want to eliminate. Either it's used or it's not. There is no such thing as 'cheap' in TA; you don't see people using spindashes sparingly in SA because it radically reduces times.

Is there a read on how many people are likely using it? I don't really know what constitutes good/bad times in SH and how widespread knowledge of TBG is so I'm not sure if it's a matter of dissecting times among the top 10 or taint throughout the rankings.

[magnum12]

That GM (E. Dark) time was TBG assisted like the other ones. It was however, a really bad run. I also suspect smizzla of mass TBG as well in case you're wondering.

[Taco]

This concept of TBG being maybe somewhat iffy is what I want to eliminate. Either it's used or it's not. There is no such thing as 'cheap' in TA; you don't see people using spindashes sparingly in SA because it radically reduces times.

Exactly! I know this is somewhat different because it's abusing a glitch in the programming rather then using a technique that was intended to be used alot like spindash, but where do we draw the line between these two things? I haven't competed in SA2B in years, but aren't there now new moves that somewhat abuse the programming of the game to do things otherwise  not possible? Like the super bounce attack.

I honestly think that we are just too far into heroes competition to even try re-categorizing times with TBG. Why can't people who don't use it just use it?



I guess I can somewhat relate to those who don't like using it though. The only 3d game I've really been competitive in was Sonic Adventure, and while all the neat little tricks we've discovered in the game are cool, I feel it's practically ruined a good portion of the game when it comes to time attacking. Practically half of sonic's levels can be beat in an insanely fast time because you go through certain walls or freeze a timer permenantly. It sort of makes me wish we had a seperate ranking for some of these level, but I know that it's hard to draw a line for categorizing unintended shortcuts, and I dont want to get in a completly different arguement or topic here

Regardless, I think it should just be incorporated by the top players into their game, and leave it at that.

[magnum12]

I guess I can somewhat relate to those who don't like using it though. The only 3d game I've really been competitive in was Sonic Adventure, and while all the neat little tricks we've discovered in the game are cool, I feel it's practically ruined a good portion of the game when it comes to time attacking. Practically half of sonic's levels can be beat in an insanely fast time because you go through certain walls or freeze a timer permenantly. It sort of makes me wish we had a seperate ranking for some of these level, but I know that it's hard to draw a line for categorizing unintended shortcuts, and I dont want to get in a completly different arguement or topic here

Agreed on that point. While its a bit off topic, why are permanent time-freeze glitches legal but not double speed shoe glitches (banned with good reason) even though permanent time freezing is a much more powerful glitch for TAing than using double speed shoes?

[yse]

Magnum raises a good point here. Let's have a debate on the pros and cons of a number of similar issues.

In this category fall the following:

* Team Blast Glitch
* Freeze-game-clock glitches
* Doublespeed Duration
* Going through walls (whether nonexistent, or by zipping)
* Others that don't come to mind right now (somebody help me out with these)

Now the reason these can be grouped into one category, is because they are all abuses of the game's programming, in different ways.

The one thing that distinguishes TSC from other competition sites, for mine, is that if the game allows you to do it, it's allowed. (I think this is a direct quote from SM? confirm/deny?) The one exception to this point in time has been Doublespeed Duration, and I imagine that is due to its stacking ability.

On issues like this, there is no middle ground. Either you can abuse it to your heart's content, or it's completely disallowed. As it stands, DD is disallowed, while TBG runs rampant. Personally, before we decide on whether the "point of no return" has been breached we need the views of sonicam and eredani. But until then I consider it to be in the same category of glitches as anything else that abuses a programming error, and therefore the same ruling should be applicable to all. If that means unbanning DD, so be it.

[Groudon]

In the chat, yoshifan brought up a point that what causes the TBG is probably the game having the flight character use the thundershoot animation rapidly in a short time, causing the game to build up the TB gauge for each individual thundershoot (I added the part after the 2nd comma).  You can also see that, during a normal thundershoot, the white ring appears for a brief moment.  The ring looks larger and you can see a second normal-sized ring because of the numerous thundershoots.  The strange sound is also an effect of the many thundershoots.

[Spinballwizard]

Going by mike's items...

* Team Blast Glitch
Never used it, except maybe accidentally in Egg Emperor Sonic, because I do thunder shoot a lot. Can't really say much for or against it, because I suck at Heroes anyways.

* Freeze-game-clock glitches
I could say the same either way. In some cases, the game almost invites it. (For example, Cannon's Core has natural timestops, and by making the stopper go offscreen quickly enough, it goes infinite.) In others (Sand Ocean) it's a glitch. I say those could stick around. (Are there any others besides SO and CC?)

* Doublespeed Duration
Can't really say much for DD, having never seen it used. (I hardly notice the effect from speed shoes myself.)

* Going through walls (whether nonexistent, or by zipping)
I haven't gotten much here at all. The only time I've really zipped is in Marbe Garden 2, using the concept found in mike's sample speedrun. (Only time I've gone through a nonexistent wall was by a glitch in Emerald Coast that basically caused my own death.)

I'd say most of 'em are able to be kept. The only argument against this could be version-specific ones, i.e. the alternate capsule in Final Egg DC. But I can't really give too much other input.

One you forgot:
* Vertical Screenwrapping (MG1, IC1, SO2, SS)

[yse]

Right here's what I want to see.

With reference to this article, debate on just what should and shouldn't be allowed in competitive play.

I personally agree with a lot of what it says. Particular reference should go to the bugs section, which after all is what we're discussing - the key here is where does it become "too abusive"?

In single player competition, it shouldn't matter so much, and therefore the rules can probably afford to be a bit less restrictive. Something like 0:00 on any MegaDrive level is obviously out of the question, but perhaps something like Hydrocity 2 on Sonic 3 needs more consideration. (If you don't know what this is, it's the ability to skip the boss on this act and hit the capsule. The timer doesn't stop, and you can't move out of the victory pose position, but you can prove you've completed the level by resetting - the game will take you to Marble Garden. Completion time would be at the frame of hitting the capsule. This differs from the now-freestyle MG2 in that the level can be proven to be completed.)

Incidentally, I find the freestyle division to be rather silly. It serves as a dumping ground for anything people don't like, really. The best way of going about this, in my opinion, is to clearly and explicitly state our rules (and more clearly than a tiny sidebar hyperlink), and anything that falls outside those rules is banned. No exceptions.

My idea for a general rule:

All statistics are considered permissible by TSC's rules as they stand at the point of level completion. Level completion can be defined by any of the following criteria:
* Flagpost crossed / Capsule hit / Goal ring hit etc.
* Screen fade out where the above is not applicable

Any additions?

[F-Man]

All statistics are considered permissible by TSC's rules as they stand at the point of level completion. Level completion can be defined by any of the following criteria:
* Flagpost crossed / Capsule hit / Goal ring hit etc.
* Screen fade out where the above is not applicable

In Sky Deck, if you don't hit the capsule in the middle enough, you'll get stuck on a wall as the ship tilts. The stage won't finish and you can't do anything except reset the game.

[yse]

F-Man: If you reset the game, does the game act as though Sky Deck was completed?

If so, that mirrors the HC2 case, and I say it should be allowed.

Magnum: The idea of this debate is to standardise what is "too abusive", and therefore Freestyle or straight b&. Following discussion with sonicam I believe "too abusive" should be defined as something that guarantees you a time that would not be attainable by any other means. In other words Start+B on MegaDrive (which guarantees 0:00) is blatantly off limits, but something like DD, which only gives a few seconds' impact (per use), and then only if you know how to use it well, would not be considered "too abusive" in my opinion.

As for stopping the clock, that's different, and gets its own little section. I have no problem with it because it effectively changes the objective from "complete this task" to "get to point X, then complete the task at your leisure". Getting to point X is itself a challenge that can be feasibly ranked, so it is. (Then again, I'm biased, as I found the LB2K trick. :P)

[Shadow Jacky]

stopped times in cannons core and sand ocean dont get tossed into freestyle though if thats the "little section" your talking about mike. 

also magnum, got anything solid for what TMC will be?  I am interested...

[sonicam]

Hello all, I appologize for not being constant here at TSC over the summer and over the beginning of the fall. I've been very busy and now I'm in college and I hardly have time to TA, especially since my GC is still not working. but I've briefly spoken to Mike and told him that I think that TBG should be Freestyled. I understand that it's incredibly difficult to look at thousands of stats and check if they were TBGed or not, but if that's what we have to do, then by all means. As Ninty and magnum have said, it's not always 'fun' to abuse a game to the point where you have to be precise to go though a wall, glitch out Sonic/Knux/etc, press 2 buttons simultaneously and if you don't get it right at that time your run is screwed, but that's more on the aspects of person opinions. I agree on that, but others might feel differently.

PsyBorg: It's not just on Boss times. Yes, TBG is very much used for those, but don't forget other aspects of levels. Final Fortess comes to mind. Using TBG when you have to face the giant hammer wielding armored robots, it's tempting to just annihilate them with a single attack, when otherwise, you'd be standing there for some time since they can prose problems and can be incredibly annoying.

Just about every Dark stage is victim.

Chaotix as well those kill all enemies since you get Rings for each kill from TBG and it's lingering effects and you can keep killing and getting rings and keep using TB, for a TB chain.

Rose, you can obtain invulnerability, speed and level ups from this.

Sonic, cleaing out annoying and tough to kill enemies.

TBG takes some planning however, it's not just use it and you will get an excellent time. If you don't know when to use it, you can make your time even worse, but that's uncommon.

In conclusion, please if possible Freestyle it. I can try to vouch for all times that I TBGed which is very minimal. PsyBorg mentioned a few and I've put comments on some of my stats if I TBG'd or not.


EDIT: Also, SJ, what do you need help with in X/Classic series?

[Shadow Jacky]

OMG YES!  Thats what I was talking about.  Having TBG being planned like planning Chaos Control in ShtH (though not the same). 

Like how I got FF Chaotic extra done so low, but in that case I had only used it once during that run (or was it twice...ah crap >_<).  Other than that I agree with sonicam that it can mess up a run if planned poorly, but like I also said I dont go in planning on using it at all for when I TA. 

Probably my say in this wont be enough for what is about to happen, but if it does go into freestyle, I'm fine with it.  Its just the side effect of not only the times, but an extra category for everyone including the top 5-10 people that made it that far already. 

Also about megaman/X, its not really help I needed, just some cool tricks and stuff like weapon charts that effect common enemies, weapon weaknesses to all sub bosses or wily/sigma fortress bosses.  I had a list of cool stuff like that but I lost it :/  Just wondering if any of you guys knew of a place like that or made one yourselves (not a RM/Maverick weakness chart though, I got those down in my head and some other things from runs I've seen).

[Marth]

In single player competition, it shouldn't matter so much, and therefore the rules can probably afford to be a bit less restrictive. Something like 0:00 on any MegaDrive level is obviously out of the question, but perhaps something like Hydrocity 2 on Sonic 3 needs more consideration. (If you don't know what this is, it's the ability to skip the boss on this act and hit the capsule. The timer doesn't stop, and you can't move out of the victory pose position, but you can prove you've completed the level by resetting - the game will take you to Marble Garden. Completion time would be at the frame of hitting the capsule. This differs from the now-freestyle MG2 in that the level can be proven to be completed.)

My idea for a general rule:

All statistics are considered permissible by TSC's rules as they stand at the point of level completion. Level completion can be defined by any of the following criteria:
* Flagpost crossed / Capsule hit / Goal ring hit etc.
* Screen fade out where the above is not applicable

Any additions?

I see F-Man already commented on this. I was also just about to.
You have to reset, and the timer doesn't even freeze! Is this allowed?
In Sky Deck, the timer does freeze as normal, so the only thing that's unusual is that
the screen never fades, and so the game has to be reset without saving.
I don't know if the Hydrocity glitch should be allowed, but if it is, the Sky Deck one should definitely be allowed.
F-Man and SadisticMystic said that completion is defined as the screen fading out and the game saving.
I already suggested what you said (hitting the capsule, which is the game's definition), but they disagreed.
(Oh, great. Here comes the same argument for what's at least the third time.)

About other things: Glitching through walls is okay, in my opinion. It'd be kind of cool to do
no-glitch competitions, but I wouldn't want them to take over as the main (or only) category.
The same goes for time-freezing, although it's a little cheap. It's still not a really big problem, though.
I mean, how many levels (I'm mostly considering SA right now) have places to freeze time?
There's Icecap, but the skipped area is just copied in Tails's stage, anyway.
And then Hot Shelter runs with Gamma can be made quicker (not better) with freezing.
Taking out all glitches would be ridiculous. It's almost impossible to decide if this shortcut or that
was intended to be used, or whatever. All it takes is a simple jump to glitch up stuff in
a sloppily-made game like SA. We just can't be sure.

[KnucklesSonic8]

Good points, sonicam.